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Post Posted: 09:27am - Jan 6,11 
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Well, now that deer season is over, all I can think about is April and starting to Salmon fish again. This year I'm planning a couple changes on Anchor Management.

In the past, we've always run mono dipsies and have had very good success with them. Now, I know it is well documented on this board that, to most Chitowners, mono-filament dipsies are an abomination......... but what can I say, we're rookies. This year I'm looking to switch that up and shell out the $$$ for the braided line.

So, my questions are: What do I need to know about running braided dipsies instead of mono? Usually we run 2 to 3 dipsies per side - how drastic of a change should I expect in my spread when running braided line? As for the dipsy depth charts, how to these change when running braid compared to mono? Do I have to shell out the big $$$ for PowerPro line or will the less expensive braid give me a taste of what I'm currently missing? Most importantly, what is the new knot that I'll need to learn to tie the braided line?

The next change I'd like to make is to run fluorocarbon leaders on, at least, my lead, copper, and planner board lines. Same questions here, is there anything I need to know about using the fluoro over mono for my leads? What about for the dipsies? Do you use fluoro for the lead from the dipsy to the dodger/flasher? Is there a special knot to use for fluoro or do the same knots for mono apply here to?

Lastly, this year we're very excited to try out a couple of my buddy's hand-tied coho flies. I've been sending him examples and links to posts on here to give him ideas. Can't wait to see what the Albino Nightmare Flies can do! He's been tying trout and ice fishing flies his whole life - this will be his first attempt at coho flies, but I have faith.

Thanks, guys - any advice is appreciated.

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Post Posted: 11:46am - Jan 6,11 
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Ok let's begin...

You can get away with some less expensive braided lines but I would stick with 30lb braid, as most dive charts (Precision Trolling), are based on the 30lb braid. That way, you can look at the chart and have a good idea on where your dipsys are running at any given measurement of line out . Now there's not much of a difference to running braid and mono dipsys except for the fact that the braid dipsys will be able to achieve great depth with less line out and the non stretch properties of braid allow for better hook up ratios with more line out. Mono is OK, and maybe even preferred, for the upper 10 to 20 ft but after that braid is superior.

Flourocarbon.... you'll gets lots of opinion on this. Some run it, some don't. I run it always and probably have spent more money than really is necessary in using it. On clear days with little or no wind, flourocarbon can definitely help with hookup's. Is it neccessary on flasher and fly rods, no! Most charters are using monofilament anywhere from 40 to 60lb test for their fly leaders. It's an aggressive presentation so most times salmon aren't inspecting your leader material. For the lead from your dipsey to your flasher, standard monofilament from 17 to 25lb test will suffice. Try your best to have at least 10 ft of mono between the dipsy and the flasher. It's a bit harder to land fish but everyone in the know says you get far more bites than using a 4 to 8 ft leader.

Lastly when using flourocarbon on leadcores, coppers, ect. realize that there is a difference between flourocarbon line and leader material. The leader material is stiffer and more shock exorbant than the line. I ALWAYS use the leader material for my fly leaders being fished off of flashers but will utilize the standard flourocarbon line for clean spoons. Brand makes a difference and SeaGuar, while expensive, seems to work best for me. Line tests will vary for what you are doing. I go fairly light by the book standards when fishing flourocarbon leaders off my leadcores. I use 15-25 feet of 15lb flourocarbon and clean spoons ONLY. You must use a higher test if you are fishing flashers and flies.

That's about it. Any other questions feel free to ask.

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Post Posted: 11:48am - Jan 6,11 
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Dave,

Great timing! I just added an article on braid dipsies to the Chitown Blog page. If you haven't checked out the blog page yet, a bunch of your questions will be answered there. I'll hit some of the high-lights here...

First off, if the mono dipsies are working for you, don't mess with it! Same as "never leave fish to find fish", if something is working, I am hesitant to mess with it. Since you have 6 dipsy rods, maybe switch 2 of them and see how you like it. Anyway, the biggest difference between mono and braid is mono stretches, braid doesn't. You can let a braid dipsy back 200' (or more) and still trip it from the boat. Braid is also thinner diameter than mono, so it will dive deeper for the same amount of line out. I believe the Precision Trolling book dive charts have both. Believe it or not, braid is likely to be cheaper than mono, in the long run. It costs more upfront, but you will get several years out of it. Brand of line is personal preference; I like Fireline, others may like PowerPro. For braid, I use a double palomar knot. Trying to describe knots without pictures is tough, so I will leave it to you to find one of the animated knots websites for that. I use a regular palomar for mono and a double palomar for braid.

Fluoro behaves very similar to mono with one exception; you need to be more careful when tying knots. The knot must be lubricated VERY well. The heat generated by friction when cinching a knot down is much more likely to cause problems with fluoro. Otherwise, I treat them the same. Check for knicks often and cut back as necessary. I use fluoro leaders on my leadcore and copper, and sometimes on divers. Dipsies are a loud, turbulent presentation anyway, so I really don't think the difference between mono and fluoro is going to be a deal-breaker to a fish that is looking to eat a dipsy bait. I also don't bother with fluoro (and the added expense) for spring planer board fishing. Most of the time, I'm targeting coho with those sticks, and the coho are pretty darned suicidal. Again, it won't hurt to use fluoro, but I don't think it is necessary.

Good luck with the Albino Nightmare flies (love the name). Let us know how they work.

Jerry
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Post Posted: 11:52am - Jan 6,11 
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Oh regarding knots... most standard knots will work on flourcarbon but the higher the test you go the knots become a bit harder to cinch down. ALWAYS be sure to moisten flourcarbon knots BEFORE tightening them up. Flourocarbon creates more friction than monofilament and therefore, without moistening you can actually damange the line just by tightening it down. As for the connection from leadcore to the flourocarbon, the double uni knot is about the best I've seen in keeping these knots tight.

Good luck!

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Post Posted: 04:10pm - Jan 6,11 
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i use a palomar knot for braided lines........

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Post Posted: 07:28pm - Jan 6,11 
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I switched from braid dipseys to wire because of the water fleas. The braid line would get so full of them they would clog the line in the guide and I would not be able to reel the fish in. I did hook up with plenty of fish using braid, so it definitely works.

I still have the braids, just don't launch them anymore b/c the wire seems to do just as well I think, and I avoid the water flea problem.

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Post Posted: 08:53pm - Jan 6,11 
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I always us a uniknot from thin braided line to 50lb mono. the thicker the line the less wraps you need. On braid its 10 wraps and on 50lb its 5 wraps.
The big thing with FLORO is it is both strong and brittle at the same time. It is more abrasion resistant than mono but once knicked it is more likely to break than mono. Especally with FLORO you have to wet the line and pull the knot SLOWLY together to reduce heat from friction. Also you have to make sure to always check for knicks. I use berkley Trilene 100% flurocarbon professional grade line (in the gold package) 20lb and 10lb. It is just normal line not the leader meterial but it seems to work and is a lot cheaper. The only time I use leader meterial is in flordia with 50-100lb leaders.

As for braid. 30lb is perfect. I like powerpro because it comes in yellow, white, green and red and the cost is not to bad. The reason for the different colors is so when you get a tangle you know what line is from what pole. Braid is a pain to untangle.

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Post Posted: 04:43am - Jan 7,11 
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I have used super braids since spiderwire came out and now have power pro and fireline with the last 2 getting the nod. The knot of choice I always superglue and it is good for the season also use a large ball-bearing snap swivel. Braids do pick up fleas due to the small diameter to combat that I will go to wire rods and also my 30lb test mono yellow bird rods for dipsies. The fleas can't hang on the thick diameter line as well.

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Post Posted: 09:42am - Jan 7,11 
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pmjasper wrote:
As for the connection from leadcore to the flourocarbon, the double uni knot is about the best I've seen in keeping these knots tight.


Interesting. I have never used flourocarbon lines but is the there a reason not to use a Willis knot when connecting flouro to lead core? Or even a double Willis if you swing that way?

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Post Posted: 11:10am - Jan 7,11 
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Not sure about the Willis knot but the double uni is nice because the knots are pulling against each other and greatly reduces knot slippage.

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Post Posted: 11:27am - Jan 7,11 
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Popeye,

I use the Willis knot for joining mono or fluoro to leadcore. As mentioned previously, with fluoro, you just need to pull all knots tight slowly and carefully. HTR also mentioned joining braid to 50# mono; for that I use an albright knot. The only place I needed to join braid directly to mono was where I spliced in a short piece of mono between the backing and the main line on my copper rigs. Everywhere else, there is some kind of hardware (swivel, keel weight, dipsy, etc) that I tie to, instead of joining the lines directly.

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Post Posted: 11:52am - Jan 7,11 
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I used the Cabelas ripcord braid last year, its a little cheaper than the powerpro, had no problems with it and it comes in green, red and yellow.

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Post Posted: 07:08pm - Jan 7,11 
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Thanks, guys - exceptional information as always.

I now think that instead of switching everything over to braid, i'll make more of an experiment with it and keep some mono. Almost in the spirit of an HTR-like research project, but not nearly as precise. We'll see if I should try to fix something that's not broken.

What about how the braided lines run behind the boat compared to mono? I'd assume that the braided lines would be tighter, or closer to the boat, compared to the mono - but how drastic is it? Should I be concerned about running braid and mono on the same side? (again, I assume the braid would want to be the inside most line) The real thing that I am concerned about is how far apart the dipsies will get from each other. I run a 1, 2, and 3 setting dipsy off each side (actually, its more a 1 off the back and a 2 and 3 off the side) and have not had problems using mono - should I be concerned w/ braid?

I am hoping that the braid keeps my dipsies apart but puts them farther under the boat and out of my board lines/lead/copper when the dipsies release. With all the mono line we have out on the dipsies to get down 45'+, we have to be careful to keep them out of the board lines.

Thanks again for all the info! This site is truly amazing

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Last edited by frisbee3557 on 07:13pm - Jan 7,11, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: 07:11pm - Jan 7,11 
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Runnin' Bare wrote:
Dave,

Great timing! I just added an article on braid dipsies to the Chitown Blog page. If you haven't checked out the blog page yet, a bunch of your questions will be answered there. I'll hit some of the high-lights here...



Great stuff, Jerry. Can't say I was aware of the blog but will definitely be checking it out from now on. Thanks!

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Post Posted: 07:26pm - Jan 7,11 
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pmjasper wrote:

Try your best to have at least 10 ft of mono between the dipsy and the flasher. It's a bit harder to land fish but everyone in the know says you get far more bites than using a 4 to 8 ft leader.



Wow - really? We'd never be able to land a fish in our boat w/ a 10' lead. Much more than a wingspan's length makes it tough. Definitely something to try when the action's slow to switch things up. Thanks

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Post Posted: 08:21pm - Jan 7,11 
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frisbee3557 wrote:
pmjasper wrote:

Try your best to have at least 10 ft of mono between the dipsy and the flasher. It's a bit harder to land fish but everyone in the know says you get far more bites than using a 4 to 8 ft leader.



Wow - really? We'd never be able to land a fish in our boat w/ a 10' lead. Much more than a wingspan's length makes it tough. Definitely something to try when the action's slow to switch things up. Thanks


Well that might work if you are high above the water and/or have room for the guy on the rod to back up. On my bass boat and fishing alone 95% of the time, I have no more than a rod length from dipsey to hook. My Dipsey rods are 9.5' and 10.5'.

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Post Posted: 10:06pm - Jan 7,11 
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Ok, braid versus mono and how it will affect the spread......above 20 feet deep, mono will be effective.

Now remember this, you can theoretically fish braid, mono and even wire at the same depth but the amount of line out, due to the angle created by resistence of gear and line, will be different.

For example purposes only (not real data), say you want to fish a size 1 dipsy diver 30 feet deep all set on a #1 setting, you might have 60 feet of line out on the mono rig, 30 feet of line out on the braid rig and 15 feet or wire out on the wire rig. At the same setting, it will take more mono, less braid and even less wire to reach the same depth.

Now throw in the variable of different settings......the lower the number, the steeper the angle the diver will dive (with less horizontal spread) and thus reach greater depths with less line out.

Example, take two mono divers, one on a #1 setting and one on a #3 setting and try to run both at 20 feet deep. The diver with the #1 setting will reach the 20 foot depth with less line out than the diver on the number 3 setting due to the different horizontal angles the divers are being let out behind the boat.

Thus, normally speaking, if you wanted to run one wire and one braid dipsy rod on each side of the boat, the wire diver would go on the inside and the braid diver on the outside. The wire would be set on a 1 or 1 1/2 setting and the braid rod on a 2 1/2 or 3 setting. This will allow the inside wire rod to fish at a steeper and deeper angle than your outside braid rod. It's really not much different with fishing one braid rod and one mono dipsy rod on the same side. Depending on the depth you are targeting, you can fish the braid rod on the inside on a lower setting and the mono rod on the outside on a higher setting. This way you can cover different depths and avoid tangles.

Now the only thing with the mono divers is once you start approaching depths of 30 feet and deeper the amount of line you have to let out becomes so great that hookups become harder due to line stretch. That's where your braid comes into play.

You can make it as simple or as difficult as you want depending on how you want to set your spread...tight or wide. stick with the basics and you should be fine.

Best wishes.


Last edited by pmjasper on 10:15pm - Jan 7,11, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: 10:13pm - Jan 7,11 
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Oh and regarding the leader lengths...again you have to work with what you have to work with.

My boat isn't large and I have a bimini top that takes up most of the room for holding a rod high off the water. I guess the best word of advise is that use the absolute longest leader from dipsy to flasher and fly or spoon that you can realistically work with. The charter guys say that if you can utilize a 10 foot leader you will get more hookups than with a 6 foot leader and they are out on the water way more than I have been. That being said, if you can never land a fish because your leader is too long that won't help either.

Work within your means and on a slow day maybe give the longer leaders a try. I have all my dipsy leaders at 10ft this year and I'll see if that increase my strike rate. I also bought a very long handled Beckman net to try and make landing easier. we'll see how that works.

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Post Posted: 01:20pm - Jan 8,11 
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Dave,

First off, with regards to the 10' leader question, I have heard that longer is better. However, when I heard it, I was at a seminar given by Best Chance Too and they were talking about something they do in tournaments. When they fish longer leaders on their divers, they are always fishing with the same, experienced crew. When they get a fish on those lines, one of the crew will reel until the diver is at the rod tip and then another crew member will hand-line the fish to the net. It takes some practice and coordination between the crew. I've never tried it, but I'm pretty sure most of the people I fish with could find a way to lose gear doing this!

As for how the braided lines will run behind the boat, the key, in my mind, is line diameter and the resulting water resistance. Braid will offer less resistance and therefore "cut" thru the water easier. The setting you dial up on the diver will dictate how far to the side it goes. Since I have not run a mono dipsy in over 10 years, I don't have exact data to offer, but I can see two scenarios:

1. Run the braid on a 0 or 1 setting off the back of the boat. This will get deeper with less line out than mono with the same setting. It will also be closer to the boat (less blowback) than a comparable mono diver, so it should stay out of the way when fish on other lines swing to the back of the boat.

2. OR, run the braid on a 3 setting as the outside diver. The braid will get deeper and farther to the side than mono, due to less resistance in the water. Since the 3 setting dives the least, you may need to let out more line to reach your target depth. This is not a problem for braid, since it is non-stretch. You will still get a good hookset and be able to trip the diver to change baits. If you are worried about the diver coming up under your planer boards, you may have your planer boards too close to the boat. If you are not in tight quarters with other boats, don't be afraid to really spread them out.

I do not see an advantage to running braid in the middle position (between 2 mono divers). Keeping them apart will depend on the settings you run and the length of line out. When I have multiple divers per side, I generally run the outside divers out longer than the inside divers. You might also want to look at the bigger, magnum divers for the inside. They will dive at an even steeper angle and provide even more separation. Good Luck!

Jerry
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Post Posted: 06:27am - Jan 12,11 
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One thing that I didn't see mentioned is; Use fluoro leader line, not fluoro fishing line. The leader line is stiffer and stronger.
If you decide to go with copper, do yourself, and every one that fishes with you a favor, and use the 32# super. The 32# deploys like core, is close to the same thickness, but runs deeper.
Check out the depth charts on Blood Runs Site. They also have great Fluoro.
http://www.coppertrollingwire.com/

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